Zak and Clayton, thank you for bringing this topic up and commenters, thank you for partaking in this discussion. I have learned allot through all this blog dialogue!

Gretchen Fagan´s last blog post..Dear Maryland Farms Starbucks,

explode away.

I’ll go check out your post later today. Thanks for joining in the conversation!

colinfagan.blogspot.com

Thanks for the discussion.

Colin Fagan´s last blog post..Nothing Like Crying in the Library

j/k. Enjoy!

No doubt there’s a difference between moral and cultural laws, but they’re laws all the same, and God Himself handed them down to the people. We’re not talking about what is or isn’t righteous, just what we as Christians tend to add to the simple, perfect and free Gospel of Christ, and the problems those additions cause.

Colin, as for the broad questions I need to answer:

1. Why did Jesus come as a Jew, adhere to Jewish traditions-celebrate them- in order to destroy them?

I can’t explain God’s mind, nor can I explain prophecy. I don’t know how this is relevant to the conversation, I wish I could answer this better in context. Sorry.

2. How do you respond to Paul in Romans who clearly states that doing away with the Law was not the purpose of Jesus?

If I promise to give you $100, and I fulfill that promise, do I still owe you $100? I submit that “abolishing” and “fulfilling” are similar, if only different in connotation. Perhaps “abolishing” implies the old law was never useful, so we don’t use the word because it was useful- it put people in bondage and showed them how badly we needed Christ to set us free.

3. Jesus said that Loving God and Loving your Neighbor are central teachings and practices. Where did they come from? Did they not come from the Law?

They came from good counsel. He is God, after all. Jesus taught under the old law, to do so would have been sinful.

4. To even commune as a body of believers is a tradition of Judaism and not Christianity. Thus should we not meet at all as a community?

Communing as a body of believer is absolutely a Christian tradition, originating in the early church. Several cornerstones of Judaism were rooted in paganism, but we don’t attribute them. I wouldn’t say communing as a body is dependent on the old law.

5. Tithing in any form comes directly from Jewish tradition and law, do we not do that any longer?

We do, but we don’t have to. Whether we SHOULD or not is another argument for another time.

6. Worship and Prayer come from the Jewish tradition, are we doing away with those too?

See #4

7. Having a body of scripture that is used to instruct the community comes directly from Judaism. Consider when Paul speaks to Timothy that the scripture is good for teaching, rebuking, encouraging people in Godliness, is he talking about the New Testament? The advent of the New Testament as a collective book did not come into remote thought until Marcion in the second century. What scripture is Paul speaking of then?

He’s speaking of the written word, all of it. I never said the Old Testament was not for us, I said the Old Law wasn’t. The Old Testament is good for teaching, rebuking, encouraging people in Godliness. Nobody this side of the resurrection ever said it was good for salvation or righteousness.

That’s all I have time for. I’m sorry I couldn’t address the rest. But I think it sort of has a lot to do with some questions that are beyond the scope of this conversation. I love the fact Zak was able to introduce an idea on how to think about the old laws this side of the cross- how they are beneficial to our families, prayer lives, etc. I thought it would be challenging to do the same to the rest of God’s law. That’s what this conversation is about, not righteousness under the law (an oxymoron).

I think one reason we Christians get confused today regarding “the law” (or torah) is because we are often ignorant of the terminology that is used in Scripture when referring to “the law”. For example, the term “abolish” in the Hebrew did not mean to “do away with” but actually means to “misinterpret”. When Jesus taught that he came to “fulfill and not abolish the law (torah)” he was actually stating that he came to bring about correct interpretation of the law (torah). This phrase “fulfill the law (torah)” was stated by rabbis when their disciples correctly interpreted a passage of Scripture. When a disciple misinterpreted a passage the rabbi would respond “you have abolished torah”.

The 613 Commandments that make up the Mosaic Law (which include the 10 commandments) were various instructions to be followed by the nation of Israel instructing them how to walk with their God and with one another as well as identify them culturally as His people. Though most do not apply to the “Gentile” Christians in the same way (the sacrificial system being one example), many of those laws or instructions give us a roadmap as to how we are to relate to God and man. Since to “sin” means to “miss the mark” what I think Zak and Clayton are trying to tell us as believers in Christ that there is a way that God intends/commands for us to live that many of us are missing the mark on one of those being the Sabbath.

When Paul the apostle stated that all Scripture is God-breathed and true and useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, that “Scripture” he was referring to was the Old Testament, since the New Testament was not in existence at the time of his letter. Though obeying “the law” does not bring about salvation, it nevertheless teaches us how to live in accordance with the character of God thus enabling us to grow in relationship with Him. Without the teaching/instruction found in the Torah, we would have no foundation and little to no understanding of the true significance of Jesus and his teachings, all of which came from the law.

Clayton – good point re: cultural vs. moral laws

Gretchen Fagan´s last blog post..Dear Maryland Farms Starbucks,

Colin:

1. Why did Jesus celebrate the Sabbath? – because he lived under the Old Law, and not doing so would have been sinful

2. Why did Jesus encourage people to do the proper sacrifice’s at the Temple? – same as above

3. Why did He pay the Temple Tax? – same as above

Most of your other questions (didn’t have time to read them all, at work) seem to stem from the mistake I made of using the word “abolish” in place of “fulfill”, as Clayton pointed out. My apologies, and thanks Clayton for catching me on that.

1. Why did Jesus celebrate the Sabbath?
2. Why did Jesus encourage people to do the proper sacrifice’s at the Temple?
3. Why did He pay the Temple Tax?

(I did not have my Bible in front of me so I apologize I am unable to notate the scripture references.If they are needed please let me know and I will provide them)

If someone wants to do away with something, why practice it? They wouldn’t. They would not celebrate them and teach others too as well.

Here are some more broad questions you need to answer:
1. Why did Jesus come as a Jew, adhere to Jewish traditions-celebrate them- in order to destroy them?
2. How do you respond to Paul in Romans who clearly states that doing away with the Law was not the purpose of Jesus?
3. Jesus said that Loving God and Loving your Neighbor are central teachings and practices. Where did they come from? Did they not come from the Law?
4. To even commune as a body of believers is a tradition of Judaism and not Christianity. Thus should we not meet at all as a community?
5. Tithing in any form comes directly from Jewish tradition and law, do we not do that any longer?
6. Worship and Prayer come from the Jewish tradition, are we doing away with those too?
7. Having a body of scripture that is used to instruct the community comes directly from Judaism. Consider when Paul speaks to Timothy that the scripture is good for teaching, rebuking, encouraging people in Godliness, is he talking about the New Testament? The advent of the New Testament as a collective book did not come into remote thought until Marcion in the second century. What scripture is Paul speaking of then?

What am I getting at: You can’t have your cake and eat it too. The logic that the Old Testament Law some how has no relevance is laughable. The majority of the practices of Jews are so inculcated into Christianity it is ridiculous that we don’t see it. Moreover, it fails to recognize the importance of Torah to EVERY NEW TESTAMENT WRITER.

Am I saying we somehow need to become Jewish in order to be Jesus followers: of course not. The Torah did not even require non-Jewish believers to adhere to every Torah regulation. There were certain sacrifices they could not partake in and other regulations they were either not able to adhere to or not allowed. But they could still be viewed and accepted as God Fearers.

To the Sabbath….(the following is not exhaustive)

Church did not meet on Sunday until Constantine regulated it so in the 4th century. It was actually the day the Sun was worshiped. It was “The Day of the Sun”-Sunday.

Sabbath started Friday night to Saturday night. Friday night you went to a synagogue or gathered together as a small community or family and prayed, ate together, talked about a portion of the Torah and spent the whole evening with your Family.
Saturday, you would attend a local synagogue to be taught by the Rabbi and then you would return home to eat once more with your family. Lastly, you return to the synagogue that night to pray for the end of the Sabbath and have a huge communal meal together to signify the end of the Sabbath.(I guess we got Church pot luck dinners from the Jews too)

What does the above teach us then:
In short, it is a day when the restrictions of time mean nothing. There are no plans, no work, no nothing. It is a day where you are reminded of two things: 1. That this world is not the end all be all of my life; that by removing myself from the rigors of the world I am reminding myself that God and Heaven are my ultimate resting place. 2. That there can be no relationship with God outside of community.

To conclude, by assuming the Sabbath is not needed, we are actually saying our God is not important and neither is our family. When Jesus criticized certain Pharisee for taking the ideas of what is working on a Sabbath into an unnecessary realm, He was not rejecting what the Sabbath really was-if anything, he was upholding what Sabbath was supposed to be.

Are we in sin if we don’t practice a sabbath and is the church if they don’t encourage it: ABSOLUTELY. Imagine what our families and communities would be like if we actually practiced the Sabbath the way it was practiced by the Jews of Jesus time and even many Jews today?

Colin Fagan´s last blog post..Nothing Like Crying in the Library

Jordan, I would take some issues with your last paragraph of your last comment because I believe there’s a clear scriptural argument against that statement. I think the Old Covenant was abolished by his dead, not the law of God, and abolished because it was fulfilled perfectly in Christ. Hebrews is a brilliant and beautiful study in this idea.

But I believe there is a difference between the moral laws and the cultural ones, and that observance of cultural laws (mixed clothing) is not sinful, only the attribution of righteousness to them that is sinful. As we see in Acts 15, the very discussion of what is and is not needed culturally to follow God is brought into question as well.

Additionally, I think we would clearly separate the ten commandments from the rest of the laws, as all of the rest of them can be extrapolated from the original ten, which were boiled down to two by Jesus. Those ten should be given just as much attention as the idea of breaking the sabbath, this is just the one we chose to talk about.

Plus, if you stay tuned until tomorrow, we’ll briefly address in the video that “man was not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath for man.” Thanks for jumping in the convo!

So, in this context, examining those old laws, seeing their relevance to the Jews who received them, and fully understanding the total abolishment of them upon Christ’s death is so important.

I’m implying that trying to justify living our lives with regard to the Old Law (not just the 10) is fine as long as you treat all of God’s law equally, and not try to pick and choose which ones you want to live life in reference to.

I’m just issuing a fun/interesting challenge- if the sabbath is so important as one of God’s old laws, why ignore the others? Why are THEY relevant?

I just think the question is important to keep in mind when you might otherwise be straying dangerously close to cherry-picking the law for tidbits to apply to daily life.

I would argue that the ten commandments ARE FOR us, but not TO us. Jesus summarized the entire law by saying “you know what, just love God and love people.” The Ten Commandments are broken up the same way. The first three relate to our relationship with God and the last seven talk about our relationships with others.

I think all ten are extremely important for us as Christ Followers in that they give us some guidelines for those relationships. And, I also believe that these “guidelines” when lived by, give you the result of the most life abundant.

Some are just more clear and obvious than others…and the sabbath is not as clear to us anymore. What I mean is i think everyone would agree that murder and stealing are bad things.

But not everyone would necessarily agree that a sabbath is something we NEED to do to be rested and as connected to God as possible.

I struggle with this issue a ton. Thanks for helping me think through it.

Now I challenge you to find a practical reason why we shouldn’t wear garments of mixed fabrics, or why we shouldn’t eat shellfish, or get haircuts or tattoos, or eat bacon- among many. Because if we’re going to follow the Ten Commandments and strive not to break them, we’re following God’s old law- and who are we to pick and choose which of the Old Laws we’re to follow? In this sense though, if we’re merely trying to… reinterpret, or modernize the Old Law as a substitute, let’s try to modernize them all!

Leviticus 11:9-12
Leviticus 19:26-28
Leviticus 19:19
Deuteronomy 14:8